I have been tuning engines for a long time and with that experience I tend to look a bit more at how other people tune their cars and bikes than anyone else. Now this is not true for everyone, but most of you will recognize yourself at some level.
About 25 years ago the level of tuning an ordinary street car would ever see was at most 30% increase in power. (Not true for every car out there, but I'm talking ordinary street cars here)
So if you had an Ford, Volvo or BMW the amount of power you could get would have been in the 150hp range and in some extreme cases 250hp. At this point this was the "limit" of ordinary naturally aspirated engines at that time. Yes there was a lot of racing going on at that time, and some of these race engines did get put into street cars and power levels would have been 300+ hp. But the amount of maintenance these race engines required and the cost to keep them running were too much for most people.
Back then you could not just go into a racing store and buy yourself a set of forged pistons and connecting rods. Let alone camshafts and valves to build your race engine.
With the introduction of turbochargers however the power suddenly increased to levels that are still uncommon in today’s cars. At the beginning people where not really sure how to tune turbo engines and intercoolers where something that most people had never heard of. Silicone hoses where did you get that?
You would have to know someone in the maintenence department that did service on trucks or busses that had turbocharged Diesel engines at the time to buy the simple things like, clamps, hoses, gaskets, oil lines etc. Even something like an external Wastegate that are availiable almost everywhere now today you could not get your hands on. And something like real drag tires where not that common either.
But as time passed by, engine tuners got their hands on more parts, most that had the machines and tools started to make their own intercoolers, wastegates and all the parts that were hard to get and the knowledge and the tuning business took of.
Now it still took some time before engine management systems and electric fuel injection where you could really start to extract power out of engines became common and figure out how to tune the software to make that work. To start if you found someone who could tune these you would have to fork out serious doe to get everything working. Well you still might have to do that today, and serious race teams do spend alot of money to get the electrical side working right. Today there are so many more things you can do with a powerful ECU, like traction control, different boost pressures for low and high gears, launch control, shiftcut etc.. This list is very long.
But before all that came chip tuning and fuel injected turbo engines. What was unheard of just 20 years ago would now become a reality for anyone with a few minutes of tuning. Some of you might know the story of the Ford RS Cosworth, Nissan Skyline, Audi S1 Quattro, Lancia S4 to name a few and other icons of the late 1980 and early 1990. The turbo engines back then would give you 200hp and that is still today 25 years on about the same power level you would get from a new car. However today this is a common power figure for a station wagon. And back in the 80s only a few racing breed turbo engines would give you that.
But with a few changes to the ECU with chip tuning and some larger fuel injectors all that was needed then was to turn up the boost pressure and 350hp where unleashed. The only real limit here was only how much air the standard turbocharger could supply.
Sure there where different levels of basic tuning you could do but the effect was the same, more power.
With more and more tuner friendly cars coming out over the years the power figures are still holding almost the same. Just until recently where the powerfigures have really started to go up and beyond what was thought possible only a few years ago..
But what have really changed today is the huge amount of DIY tuners out there. What engine tuners did 25 years ago have now entered the garage and racing parts have now become widely available to anyone. From the cheap Chinese made turbo exhaust manifolds to wastegates and almost every tuning part you can think of to the pure racing parts like forged pistons and engine management systems on sale that anyone can buy.
So what has happened is anyone with a little background in mechanics can now build their own race engine. Power levels have just gone up and up and up.. It’s not uncommon to see street cars today with 500hp and then there are the ones who have gone even higher, breaking the 1000hp barrier.
The one thing that all these engines have in common to achieve such power levels are of course the turbocharger. Without the turbo it would not have been possible. Well a supercharger or N02 injection could do the job too but that’s another story.
However time and time again people forget the most important parts when tuning cars. I’m talking about safety and racing safety gear. I do see that people buy racing seats and that’s good. But most of the time they don’t buy racing seats because of the added safety. It’s because they think racing seats look good. And what about things like auto racing helmets that keeps your head intact. Most of the time people come to the track without real racing helmets and if it’s street racing that’s taking place, no one seems to bother wearing any kind of racing helmets at all.
I do understand that people feel protected inside their cars and they don’t think they need roll cages and in some cases opt for roll bars instead but you really need to think about this.
Some of the racing safety gear you should look at are the following:
racing suit
racing shoes
racing helmets
racing gloves
This would be the minimum for my liking if your going on a trackday or similar race day event with your tuned car.
In case you don’t have a fuel cell in your car and there is a chance of fire or fuel leak then you should consider racing fire suits also because these will save your life.
Fire is not to be taken lightly. If you have a good fuel system in place to feed your engine and anyone who are looking for power is going to have that. Then you need to understand that at any given time those racing fuel pumps are pumping 2 gallons of fuel every minute. And if you get a leak and have an accident you are in real trouble if the power to the pumps are not cut right away.
So having the right racing safety gear to protect you is always a good choice. Today’s car are much safer than the ones years ago, but you need to understand that when we double and triple the amount of power and turn our 100mph car into a 200mph fire spitting monster of a car you really, really should spend some time and pick out some racing safety gear also.
25 comments:
Hello, I'm looking into putting Turbo on my Yamaha Warrior, muscle bike. I would love to pick your brain and develop some networking.
Hi Greg, you can drop me a mail at turbochargerspecs@rocketmail.com if you like. The Yamaha have a pretty big engine 1600-1700cc so spooling a turbo wont be much of a problem. However I would try and stick to a 200hp turbo like Garrett GT20 because you can't rev you're engine that high. So because this a smaller turbo is in favor. If you run E85 fuel (ethanol) you can run around 1 bar boost without a intercooler. But if you can't find E85 in you're area then a small intercooler fitted will let you run the boost you want no problem. If not you will be limited to how much boost you can run because the inlet temperature will become to high and risk the engine. Still you're engine if I'm right have around 8.3:1 compression so you can probably run 0,7 bar boost without a problem as the engine is. I would guess that you can get around 150hp without to much work, just fitting the turbo. You would need to have the carb under pressure though.
Hy I have nissan ca18det engine and this gt2860r 707160-5 ... the problem is .. Full boost 1bar is on 4000 rpm... turbo have a big lag...
Hello there, not knowing your engine specs I can only guess. But with this GT28 turbocharger you should have 1 bar boost pressure at 3000 rpm. Could even get it a bit sooner than that if the engine gets tuned right. One thing I would start out with to troubleshoot is the wastegate. If you have a lot of backpressure in the turbo mainfold it could force the actuator spring controlling the wastegate open and you get a slow spool from the turbo. You can test and see if this is happening by adding another spring to the wategate like in this picture link below. If you get an improvement with the extra spring then all you need to do then is to fit a bigger actuator to solve the problems. Hope this helps.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GBGp1ePKGsA/VL6oHB5f3NI/AAAAAAAAC7Q/x1y2suvszPM/s1600/Wastegate%2BActuator%2BSpring%2BTurbo%2BTroubleshooting%2BBoost%2BPressure%2BHow%2BTo%2Bwww.TurbochargerSpecs.blogspot.com.jpg
I have a 2007 mini cooper s, 1.6L engine I'm looking something between 300 and 350Hp, what size or what type of turbo will be the best for my mini? Any recommendations?
I'm confused since my engine size is only 1.6L and these turbos seems to be too big for my engine size. I'm afraid that the engine might not be able to spool it. As I said any recommendations or suggestions will be apriciated.
Hello, to reply to you both about the 1.6L engines. It all depends on what power you are looking to make. If you say need 300 hp then this GT2860R turbocharger will give you that and you can push this turbocharger even further to about 350hp.
It will spool up on both you're 1.6L engines, but how soon will depend on the overall engine setup when completed. So if the setup is not optimal, then the engine will only come to life and start to pull hard at around 4500 rpm. But if you have done some engine work, with a nice exhaust it could be 3500 rpm instead. It all depends. But this turbo being ball bearing really helps.
If you are unsure and feel like the GT28 turbocharger range is a bit too big for the engine and your power goals then there is always the GT25 and even GT22 turbocharger range that you could look into. A little less top end power but you also get a nice spooling turbocharger and a fun drive. Trust me 300hp will put a smile on your face every time you go for a drive.
Hi, I just purchased a brand new GT28 60 R to replace my GT25 54 R This is fitted to a Honda Blackbird 1100cc Injected engine fitted on a Hill climb car. The engine is totally stock with stock 11:1 cr a really nice Exhaust manifold , 650cc siemens injectors and a fully programable ECU. question what is the boost pressure I should run ? the car is fitted with an intercooler and is run on racing fuel. What is the opening psi of the wastgate ? the engine revs easily up to 11500rpm, what power should i expect. I went for a bigger turbo because power would drop off at 220 WHP with the GT25 54. Thanks look forward to your views.
Hello David, it's hard to say how much boost you could run with the stock 11:1 compression ratio even on race gas to be on the safe side. But if your running something like VP's C16 Race Fuel then you should be ok to even max out the tubo with a good tune.
If we compare the GT2860r and GT2554 turbochargers then you should see around +50 hp with the same boost pressures. I would expect to see 250whp around 1 bar boost and with 1.5bar boost close to 300hp.
The GT2860r wastegate spring usually open around 10-15psi so if you don't bleed the air then 250whp is around what you can expect without any other changes to your current setup.
Than you should go for the gt2860r rather then the rs, the r makes slightly less power but spools up quicker, i believe around 3000-3500 is where it kicks in however the gt28r doesnt hold the power down till redline i believe. Im also going for the gt2860r rather than the rs
Hi,could an 1.4 displacement to spool this turbo?first I have a gt2554r and was very good,but broken,and after I put a gt2871 and makes max 0.5 bar.
Thx
Hi 5supercinque, what power are you trying to make? The Garrett GT2871R Turbocharger is the biggest GT28 turbo and have a wide 270 - 475 hp range suitable for 1.8L - 3.0L engines. The GT2860R is a good upgrade but it will spool a bit slower than your smaller GT2554R turbo.
Thx for answer.About 250hp,the car is a renault 5 gt turbo 1397 cm,I have a full large exhaust,a pipercam,and a big front intercooler,a head gasket that reduce the cr to 7.5;1 and a rejetted group a carburettor
But the problem is that I don t find a gt2554 second hand,I found a gt2860.
With gt2871 full boost at over 6000rpm,and engine up just max 7000
With 2860,you think the full boost would come at 4000rpm?it would be good at 4000rpm cause is not a daily drive car,the car weight just 780kg
Thx
I have a hardly used GT 25 54 for sale.
Hi 5supercinque, with 1400cc, low comp and big cams you usually have a hard time spooling a big turbo. I would guess around 4.5-5000rpm. If you can control the ignition curve you could get better response and help the turbo spool. But if you already know at what rpm the cams start to give power and where max torque is without a turbo, then you can expect the turbo to start to give boost around that rpm range.
I have a 1990 r32 gtr, no clue what mods it has other than what I can see. Apex intakes, his intercooler pipe, arc intercooler...the engine itself looks stock. The boost restrictor has been removed from the original pipe to the boost controller. It pulls real good but still maxes out about .7bar according to the gauge in the car. Would upgrading the turbos to 2 gt2860's help out tremendously or be about the same power output?
Hello Brandon, the stock gtr r32 turbos use ceramic turbine wheels and they can fail if you start to go above 1 bar boost. So it is common to replace these. But stock turbos are still good for around 300whp at around 1 bar boost. Now there are upgrade options like replacing the wheels with non-ceramic ones so you can push higher boost but consider around 4-450hp max what a set of upgraded stock turbos can do.
Now if you instead go with a set of Garrett GT2860R turbos you should be good for 600hp so there is a pretty big difference in power.
If you are new to the skylines and unsure if there are boost issues you can read how to do diagnostic checks on the ECU and faulty sensors and what to look out for here
http://www.skyline.se/dokument/the_sky_is_the_limit.pdf
Hi! I have R33 GTR RB26DETT Everything internal has been replaced except the Crankshaft. Manifold, downpipe and 3" exhaust is by tomei. I'm looking for turbo that will spool early like the OEM and can give me at least 450whp. Thanks for any input.
Hello, if you have some money to spend and like to go with a single turbo setup then the new Garrett G25-500 turbocharger would be the best option for spool. You should have good spool and get at least 400-450whp at around 2 bar boost pressure.
These are fairly new turbochargers so there is still more testing needed to see how far these smaller turbos can be pushed power wise. For a solid 500whp you should consider the bigger G25-660 turbocharger however it might be a bit more laggy setup.
Hi JD, thanks for putting up the info.
I have a R33 GTR and would like to retain the twin turbo setup.
The car has full intercooler piping and a turbo back exhaust.
The stock turbo (260000km) is giving up soon, since it's blowing white smoke occasionally.
My question is what is the spool up time difference between the 707160-5 and 707160-7?
I am looking for 400-450ps with quick spool up. I know the -7s' is the answer. But I got a very good offer on the -5s, wonder is it worth to compromise.
Thanks advance!
Hello, if you get a good deal on the 707160-5 I would go for it. The 44mm compressor wheel on the 707160-7 turbo is a bit lighter vs the 47mm compressor wheel on the 707160-5 turbo. So that extra mass does make the 47mm 707160-5 turbo spool a bit slower.
However on bigger engines like the 6 cylinder Skyline you are not going to feel that much difference anyway. What might hurt spool more is if you change to high lift/duration cams etc like many people do that use the smaller turbos to gain some more power.
But the good thing with the 707160-5 turbos is they are capable of running much higher +2bar/30psi boost to compensate for the lack of cylinder head flow, so that will even things out also.
Thanks for the prompt reply!
"However on bigger engines like the 6 cylinder Skyline you are not going to feel that much difference anyway."
Is this base on all 6 cylinder spooling 1 707160-5?
But the stock setup is running the twin turbo in parallel, 3 cylinder / turbo, 1300cc / turbo.
Isn't the spool up time difference will be quite pronounce in this setup?
Hello, there's a few different setups done on turbo 6 cylinder engines like blocking off one turbo for better spool. But if we are talking about a normal stock twin turbo setup, then the difference of running two -7s or -5s are small when it comes to spool. I think what most people feel as lag with the bigger turbos is they spool a bit slower and also comes on stronger, so even though the spool is similar it makes them feel a bit more "laggy" when driving.
With the -7s you might have full boost around 4000rpm, but with the -5s you might have full boost at 4300-4500rpm depending on cams etc. However if you are worried about 3-500rpm later spool in the worst case and think that's a big deal, then of course the smaller turbos would be better. But also on the other hand you might be missing out on around 100hp at peak boost with the same turbos. So for me it's a good compromise going with the -5 turbos if you can get a good deal on them.
Got it! And thank-you for your patience on explaining.
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